205 GTI front brake upgrade

[schlitzaugen]

Okay. The results are in.

This is a drawing of what's what.

I had a good poke around and I found there are a number of possibilities to upgrade the front brakes of your 205GTI.

Callipers used are from 206. This is unfortunately the only piece of the puzzle I can not give any more details about. My callipers are s/h so no idea what model 206 they came off. All I know is they are Bosch. Pads that fit are DB1923, not sure what brand that is, this is off a catalogue found in a Repco store. The equivalent I bought is Remsa , part #BPM 0840 10. They are the same as the Bosch pad recommended elsewhere by another member here, BW4167.

Now to the drawing. The reference line is where everything is measured from. The opening of the 206 calliper is between the reference line and 26 (these are mm). Any disc you use has to fit here.

Red is where the mating face disc-hub is on 205GTI hubs. Black is the same for Si hubs. Difference between the two is 10mm as you can see.

Brake discs DBA #2274 (226dia, 34.2height, 22 thick, 6mm thickness of material at hub mating face). Perfect fit as you see when mounted on Si hubs. Alternative part number (TRW?) DF4184S.

There is another disc in 266mm diameter, DBA 274 (DF1220S) but as you can see it doesn't quite fit.

Now the surprise is there is one disc that might fit on the GTI hub. This is DBA 474/DF3021S (some Honda Integra or something - 262/45/21, centre hole 64, four stud holes, PCD100). There is some work involved, but if you are keen on keeping your GTI hubs here goes.

The diameter is 262mm. Not really a problem, I checked and the pads don't run on the edge of the 266mm disc, there is at least 2mm to the edge, so 262 might be enough.

The centre hole is 64mm not 66 as for the other ones, but I guess this can be machined easily.

Here comes the tricky part. The wheel stud holes (4) are on a PCD of 100, not 108. You need to have them drilled. I have done this in the past to adapt a 5 stud disc to a 4 stud hub, it's not a biggie. I would again employ the services of the friendly local machinist.

Keep in mind, my car is a 1987 GTI and the hubs are original.

 

[DRTDVL]

Ok - from what I remember of your gti's you actually run the 1.6 gti setup (smaller driveshafts, different brake offsets, etc...). If this is the case with your car you will need to use some later gti hubs that ran the larger driveshafts or get some base model hubs (xs, gt,gr,etc...) this will allow you to use the 206,306,307 brakes and discs - which is what your struggling with.

I'm not 100% sure but I think the 405/406 setup works on the 1.6 gti setupz

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Ok - from what I remember of your gti's you actually run the 1.6 gti setup (smaller driveshafts, different brake offsets, etc...). If this is the case with your car you will need to use some later gti hubs that ran the larger driveshafts or get some base model hubs (xs, gt,gr,etc...) this will allow you to use the 206,306,307 brakes and discs - which is what your struggling with.

I'm not 100% sure but I think the 405/406 setup works on the 1.6 gti setupz

Si hubs are base model hubs.
All you need to do to get perfectly good brakes on an early GTi is to fit early 306 brakes to Si hubs, everything bolts together, why all this stuffing around for no benefit?
Graham

 

[DRTDVL]

The 206 266mm brakes will work on the base model and proper 1.9 gti hubs - we have done this on my friends car here.

 

[djvu205]

i had some 266mm brakes on my old si, you need the correct rotors the hat height varies

 

[88lp]

Si hubs are base model hubs.
All you need to do to get perfectly good brakes on an early GTi is to fit early 306 brakes to Si hubs, everything bolts together, why all this stuffing around for no benefit?
Graham

Would a '97 306 be considered an 'early' example for it's brakes?

Thanks.

 

[DRTDVL]

306 brakes regardless of if it was a n3 or n5 model fitted. The s16 (n3) brakes fit, and the gti-6 (n5) brakes also fitted. The 307 XSP also fit, as do the 206 gti-180. BUT they only fit the base model 205's and the 1.9 gti's (proper hubbed ones not the 1.6 style ones you guys got - i think you refer to them as the S3?)

Its more a case of which 205 hubs you have, the 1.6 gti style or the 1.9 gti / base model.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Would a '97 306 be considered an 'early' example for it's brakes?

Thanks.

Probably could be better described as base model rather than early model.
The GTI6 brakes will fit but are too sensitive (could fit a larger master cylinder to reduce this but would still have to increase the rear braking effort to match) and more than one person has removed them due to this and also the increased unsprung weight. Don't know about the S16 but they would fit I would think.
Graham

 

[schlitzaugen]

Si hubs are base model hubs.
All you need to do to get perfectly good brakes on an early GTi is to fit early 306 brakes to Si hubs, everything bolts together, why all this stuffing around for no benefit?
Graham

Firstly, trying to get the parts without part numbers one soon finds out there are endless variations of everything and without part numbers, you're stuffed because nobody knows what they need to sell you. That is why I listed all the bits here with part numbers. Even if you don't find the exact part I used, it is a starting point for your research. Vague instructions such as "early this" or "late that" are worth nil when you are trying to order parts over the phone or off the internet.

Secondly, the benefit of keeping my GTI hubs is that the scrub radius of the tire remains the same. The Si hub changes that and I don't know if it is a good change. For a non-PS car 10mm difference in the scrub radius can make a huge difference.

 

[DRTDVL]

If you want part numbers I can get them off the spares under the house I think.

You also know of this site? http://www.miamistu.co.uk/pug/ that lets you look up the part numbers? There is the service box also but you need to say your a repairer to gain proper access to the database, it's easy as.

A good search on 205 gti drivers will also yield the same information, along with conciderably more detailed information.

 

[schlitzaugen]

If you want part numbers I can get them off the spares under the house I think.

You also know of this site? http://www.miamistu.co.uk/pug/ that lets you look up the part numbers? There is the service box also but you need to say your a repairer to gain proper access to the database, it's easy as.

A good search on 205 gti drivers will also yield the same information, along with conciderably more detailed information.

I didn't find this information anywhere, that is why I had to compile here data I collected myself. The GTI drivers site you speak of doesn't work with distances, measurements and sizes, plus they have different cars over there. That is all confusing and therefore useless. A millimetre is the same on the other hand.

The data here shows the physical constraints within which anything has to fit in order for a modification to work. Not everybody has at their disposal an Si hub (or a GTI for that matter, or various callipers, discs and pads) to measure distances and check fit. Part numbers vary from one manufacturer to the next and so on. Having the raw data is important then because it allows everybody to compare with what they can find wherever they are.

 

[DRTDVL]

It might not but it will give you enough information to visit a site like brembo and look at the specs of the disc's.

We don't all have a mass of wrecked cars to pull parts from, I've borrowed, bought, and lucked out with donated parts to verify things. The information on 205 drivers, is although not mm specific more than enough to do what your looking to do.

You know te center plane of the disc (where the pads touch) is the same on both the 1.6 gti and the others? It's the shorter hat height and a greater distance from the bearing face to mounting face that causes the offset issue? The wheel is in the same place. You can use 205 244mm calipers from the 1.9 gti on the 1.6 hub provided you use the 1.6 gti disc.

If the 206 brakes are 266mm they are from a 206 gti - the base spec 206's ran a 243mm disc from my understanding.

You Aussie boys got the weird bunches of gti's, kinda like the jap models - all but your s3 gti's from my understanding actually ran the 1.6 gti setups!

 

[schlitzaugen]

It might not but it will give you enough information to visit a site like brembo and look at the specs of the disc's.

We don't all have a mass of wrecked cars to pull parts from, I've borrowed, bought, and lucked out with donated parts to verify things. The information on 205 drivers, is although not mm specific more than enough to do what your looking to do.

You know te center plane of the disc (where the pads touch) is the same on both the 1.6 gti and the others? It's the shorter hat height and a greater distance from the bearing face to mounting face that causes the offset issue? The wheel is in the same place. You can use 205 244mm calipers from the 1.9 gti on the 1.6 hub provided you use the 1.6 gti disc.

If the 206 brakes are 266mm they are from a 206 gti - the base spec 206's ran a 243mm disc from my understanding.

You Aussie boys got the weird bunches of gti's, kinda like the jap models - all but your s3 gti's from my understanding actually ran the 1.6 gti setups!

I did look at the brembo disc sizes, but in Oz we don't import Brembo so there's no point to it. For me it was the starting point in identifying what the difference was between the various discs available in 266mm. to my surprise I discovered that even the locally made DBA parts are not that available here, perhaps this is a WA problem. Anyway, they are quite expensive. About twice as pricey as other brands imported here from Europe (not Taiwan).

Comparison tot he 1.6 GTI is irrelevant here because we never had that model.

Teh models I am comparing are the Si and the GTI in Aus spec. I know nothing about any other models.

Again, it is irrelevant what model car my 266 discs are from because that is not how you buy them. If you show up in a shop and ask for "206 disc brakes" they ask you for a VIN number or a part number and then you're stuffed because you have none. That is why to me millimeters count, car models don't. The more so since our models here are not identical to others elsewhere even if they have the same designation.

As I said before, it is the pleasure of the modern car manufacturer, supplier and reseller to confound you with mumbojumbo like that, models, part numbers, etc. Ultimately this is all irrelevant for the backyard mechanic who wants to do a conversion and has no access to any of the manufacturer's part catalogues or the supplier catalogues and so on.

Until you have to order the parts, that is. But you have to know if they fit first. So there's your dilemma. Well, this is why I put this data here. Measure what you've got, see what fits and how, and order what you need. It's all here.

Say you find in your local shop a disc which has 46 height, 24 thick disc and 6mm face thickness and you want to know if you need Si hubs or GTI hubs. Well, look at the diagram and you can work it all out in a jiffy. No need for confusing explanations or endless dribble about GTI, Si, 206es and whatnot.

Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to borrow, show me or donate me 205 stuff here. I believe mine is the only daily driven 205GTI in WA. Any other surviving cars are probably only for show and tell. That is why I have to either think very carefully what I buy/order or just risk some money to just have a look at a part and find it is no good. Needless to say you don't get rich that way.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

I did look at the brembo disc sizes, but in Oz we don't import Brembo so there's no point to it. For me it was the starting point in identifying what the difference was between the various discs available in 266mm. to my surprise I discovered that even the locally made DBA parts are not that available here, perhaps this is a WA problem. Anyway, they are quite expensive. About twice as pricey as other brands imported here from Europe (not Taiwan).

Comparison tot he 1.6 GTI is irrelevant here because we never had that model.

Teh models I am comparing are the Si and the GTI in Aus spec. I know nothing about any other models.

Again, it is irrelevant what model car my 266 discs are from because that is not how you buy them. If you show up in a shop and ask for "206 disc brakes" they ask you for a VIN number or a part number and then you're stuffed because you have none. That is why to me millimeters count, car models don't. The more so since our models here are not identical to others elsewhere even if they have the same designation.

As I said before, it is the pleasure of the modern car manufacturer, supplier and reseller to confound you with mumbojumbo like that, models, part numbers, etc. Ultimately this is all irrelevant for the backyard mechanic who wants to do a conversion and has no access to any of the manufacturer's part catalogues or the supplier catalogues and so on.

Until you have to order the parts, that is. But you have to know if they fit first. So there's your dilemma. Well, this is why I put this data here. Measure what you've got, see what fits and how, and order what you need. It's all here.

Say you find in your local shop a disc which has 46 height, 24 thick disc and 6mm face thickness and you want to know if you need Si hubs or GTI hubs. Well, look at the diagram and you can work it all out in a jiffy. No need for confusing explanations or endless dribble about GTI, Si, 206es and whatnot.

Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to borrow, show me or donate me 205 stuff here. I believe mine is the only daily driven 205GTI in WA. Any other surviving cars are probably only for show and tell. That is why I have to either think very carefully what I buy/order or just risk some money to just have a look at a part and find it is no good. Needless to say you don't get rich that way.

The Series 1 and 2 GTis ARE 1.6 GTis, engine, FD ratio and and cat are the only difference.
Also, the only thing you need to do to get excellent brakes as DTRVL has confirmed is to fit S3/or base model 306 (any 8 valve from 94 to 97 will do, I can get some and send them to you if that is a problem) calipers.

Graham

 

[addo]

Brembo rotors are easily bought from the UK via Fleabay seller "autoperformance online". If you find a friend to split postage with, they average $120/pr over four pairs air freighted.

 

[schlitzaugen]

The Series 1 and 2 GTis ARE 1.6 GTis, engine, FD ratio and and cat are the only difference.
Also, the only thing you need to do to get excellent brakes as DTRVL has confirmed is to fit S3/or base model 306 (any 8 valve from 94 to 97 will do, I can get some and send them to you if that is a problem) calipers.

Graham

Thanks, Graham, I already had 206 callipers, hence my problems. I understand they're similar to 306. At any rate, they do work with the combination of parts above.

Brembo rotors are easily bought from the UK via Fleabay seller "autoperformance online". If you find a friend to split postage with, they average $120/pr over four pairs air freighted.

I know, Addo. I did manage to find local equivalents for their discs at similar prices.

Right now I have everything I need to do the conversion, hopefully over this coming week end.

 

[jurgen_s]

307 hdi discs and callipers are also a straight bolt on and more important they never seem to fade

 

[schlitzaugen]

307 hdi discs and callipers are also a straight bolt on and more important they never seem to fade

See, that is precisely what I am talking about. Such information is completely useless when there's a million discs listed on various manufacturer's catalogues for this car and the local dealer asks you for a VIN number.

If you can provide some dimensions for those discs, it makes it easier to identify what you're talking about, or part numbers/manufacturer even better.

 

[jurgen_s]

useless?? Two sizes: 266mm or 283mm (for a 307 with ABS AND ESP)

You will need a 15" wheel afterwards.
Almost all the track cars in our peugeot club use them.

But since you have asked politely:

They'll fit straight on, calipers, carriers discs and pads. For the 283mm discs: you will need to remove any balancing weight from the inside of the wheel because it will be that tight. Replacing them more inwards will also help, if not you can still place them on the outside of the wheel. You will also need to make the brake hose longer.

brakepads for the 266mm (only ABS version): wide 136.8mm, height 51.6mm, thickness 19.0mm
brakepads for the 283mm (with ABS and ESP): wide 136.8mm, height 57.6mm, thickness 19.3mm

so if you go to a scrapyard you can see what size you want.

 

[schlitzaugen]

useless?? Two sizes: 266mm or 283mm (for a 307 with ABS AND ESP)

You will need a 15" wheel afterwards.
Almost all the track cars in our peugeot club use them.

But since you have asked politely:

They'll fit straight on, calipers, carriers discs and pads. For the 283mm discs: you will need to remove any balancing weight from the inside of the wheel because it will be that tight. Replacing them more inwards will also help, if not you can still place them on the outside of the wheel. You will also need to make the brake hose longer.

brakepads for the 266mm (only ABS version): wide 136.8mm, height 51.6mm, thickness 19.0mm
brakepads for the 283mm (with ABS and ESP): wide 136.8mm, height 57.6mm, thickness 19.3mm

so if you go to a scrapyard you can see what size you want.

Jurgen, if you ever come to Western Australia, I will give you a tour of all the scrap yards around here with Peugeots.

Yep, you guessed it, there are none.